What would you change?

Chat about the characters, plot, music, special effects...
Rachel
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Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2001 1:20 pm

What would you change?

Postby Rachel » Sat Jun 22, 2002 5:21 pm

Is there any aspect of the series that you would like to alter? I still think it's sad that Commander Makara was killed off; perhaps she could have been converted to being a good guy, instead. Not TOO goody-goody, of course, or she wouldn't be Makara; but without the pressure of the Imperial Master (I'm quite glad to see the last of him!), she would not be compelled to go out of her way to destroy Starfleet, anyway.And if Lamia could have married Shiro, whilst still ruling the universe, that would make for a happy ending. When you think about it, it's awful having this strange guy appearing and telling you it's destiny that he and you are to become one (whether you like it or not)!

felice
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What would you change?

Postby felice » Mon Oct 14, 2002 11:17 pm

Nah, I like Makara being a villain, and while I was sad to see her killed, it was dramatically sound. And as for Lamia and Halley... well, he was pretty cute 8) But more seriously, I think Lamia knew on some subconscious level that it was her destiny, and expected and wanted it. Her not liking it was never an issue.As for what I _would_ change... nothing that couldn't be fixed by redoing the soundtrack. Basically, I'd like the script to be written to fix the inconsistencies and plot holes and excessive childishness; the fundamental plot doesn't need to be changed. And the awful clip shows could be redeemed somewhat by adding some decent dialog over the top of the clips. And this isn't an entirely unfeasible idea... if Genesis is ever to be made, we'd need a bunch of voice actors anyway...An example of plot points that I'd modify in the dialog:Shiro kills Carter in self defense because he only partially, temporarily regained control of himself, and it was the implants regaining control that caused him to shoot at Shiro. In the existing script, his knowledge of the Alliance would have been invaluable to Starfleet, making his suicide rather selfish.And I'd give the Imperial Master a _reason_ to attack Earth at the end of the series.

Shane
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What would you change?

Postby Shane » Tue Oct 15, 2002 5:39 pm

I dunno, I think it was due to Carter's sense of honor that he wished to end it all. A man (heh, puppet) like Carter would not be able to live knowing that he was a traitor, even if it wasn't his fault. He bullied Shiro into shooting him completely free of Imperial control knowing full well that Shiro would take him down. If you have ever seen the series uncut rather than the US tapes, in Episode 4 there is a lengthy flashback sequence between Carter and Shiro when they were both at the academy on Earth as instructor and pupil. There is a scene with Carter antagonising Shiro, saying that he doesn't have the killer instinct (or words to that effect. and even taking pot shots at him. So there was a definite forshadowing to the final duel between Shiro and Carter. I think it's more dramatic the way it's done, although you do raise a good point, perhaps it would have been a more selfless act for Carter to remain alive and dish the dirt on his ex Imperial buddies. I just don't think that was Carters way, there was something edgy about his character almost zen like. The fact that the cadets debate that Carter chose to be based on Pluto because he knew somthing bad was on the horizon and that he went their to die seems to back this up.Deep man! Shane.
I like parties, I like fun, I want to live in a hamburger bun!

felice
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 11:14 pm

What would you change?

Postby felice » Tue Oct 15, 2002 9:24 pm

Yes, that's a good explanation of his death as scripted in the current english version (and probably seems more reasonable from a Japanese viewpoint), but I don't think Carter ending up as a suicidal bully without the courage to kill himself directly fits at all well with the hero figure that Shiro and co seem to almost worship. I'd have preferred him to be heroically resisiting his Imperial conditioning just enough to enable Shiro to shoot him first. The foreshadowing would still work, and Shiro's distress afterwards would still make sense.I don't recall the cadets talking about his deathwish - was that before or after he died? A transcript of the series would be very useful for checking up on this sort of thing... not too huge a job if we split it up and do one or two episodes each.

AndyThomas
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What would you change?

Postby AndyThomas » Tue Oct 15, 2002 9:44 pm

Now, that's an interesting point.  Japanese culture would certainly allow for honourable suicide in those sort of circumstances, although perhaps more for making a mistake.  This is an unusual scenario in that Carter genuinely had no option about what he was doing, but he obviously feels it was dishonourable regardless.  One possibility - if some imperial conditioning did remain, he might not have been capable of killing himself.  Not sure that works though as he was able to harm himself by breaking his claw off.  Of course, Shiro might have stopped him committing suicide, so he had to try and force the issue...At the end of the day, it's a kids show and I'm not sure suicide would have been acceptable.  A duel was probably more likely to get past the censors.  Actually, this is what's making me smile about your Genesis comments Felice - you're holding me up to a very high standard of writing when I'm trying to follow on from kids show rules!  But of course, that's the tricky thing about trying to do a serious follow-on - we're all adults (ish!) now after all, so there's a balance to be struck...I think the boys discuss Carter in the otherwise painful episode 13, because there's a flashback of the attack on Pluto base and some other footage from Shiro's training days. That's the episode immediately following Carter's death.As for transcripts - it'd be doable, but Shane or Daz would have to fill in some of the cut UK scenes. It would certainly be interesting to re-create the screenplay - you could use it to do a remake of the original. Mmm... The way I did my episode guides originally was typing to describe the action while having it in a video window on my machine, so I was only able to grab the odd quote as I went through...
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Shane
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What would you change?

Postby Shane » Tue Oct 15, 2002 9:51 pm

I probably emphasised to much on the Bully element in my explaination. Carter truely cared for Shiro. The academy section is typical of all military training where the instructor seems to be a psycho but is only pushing his cadets so hard because he knows his training will keep his cadets alive in battle.I don't think Carter was being a suicidal bully he was just goading Shiro into killing him because he wanted a dignified death at the hands of a student he truely respected. Again Carter isn't under Imperial influence at this point, the final blaster duel appears to be a bluff on Carters part I don't believe he would truely have shot Shiro, although Shiro doesn't know this and goes for the kill just as his Instructor had tried to teach him at the Academy. The "good shot Shiro" then takes on extra meaning. A transcript of the series is a really good idea I'm surprised nobody has done this already.Shane.
I like parties, I like fun, I want to live in a hamburger bun!

felice
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 11:14 pm

What would you change?

Postby felice » Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:54 pm

Ok, we fast-forwarded most of episode 13, which explains why I missed the dialog in question. Yes, the duel was definitely more suitable for a kids' show than suicide would have been. I'd just have preferred a slightly different motivation behind it. Writing for kids isn't an excuse for inconsistencies, poor characterisation, plot holes, etc. It's certainly easier (and very common) for writers to get away with such things with a less sophisticated audience, but that's just being lazy. Writing for kids should mean keeping the story sufficiently interesting/exciting, easy to follow, and non-traumatic to entertain them; otherwise, the standards should be the same as for adult writing.And I'm glad you're smiling at my comments! I'm a bit worried about coming across as too negative; it's intended as constructive criticism of something that I'm very impressed with over all. But it's much easier (and more interesting) to talk about what could be changed rather than a long list of "that's good, and that's good, and that's really good..."

AndyThomas
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What would you change?

Postby AndyThomas » Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:15 am

Oh, I don't know, if you want to highlight all the good bits don't let me stop you ! ;) Seriously, though, as Justin has mentioned elsewhere Star Fleet was dubbed at a time when the art of dubbing Japanese series was in its infancy. So I think that as a result there are certain elements of the show which do make you raise an eyebrow from time to time.Consequently, whilst the original may have been watertight (and given the Japanese attention to detail, probably was) in adult hindsight we can spot certain issues with it. For example, purely from a scientific point of view, the idea of having a base on Jupiter is a non-starter, as is X-Bomber surviving a fall into a Black Hole and then zooming around inside one until it finds a way out! That obviously has nothing to do with dubbing, that's just because it's done for fun. Having an asteroid belt just beyond Mars is actually accurate. In my version, as far as possible, the astronomical facts are correct (e.g. the timing of the return of Halley's comet). I knew I wouldn't get away with that sort of thing with adults reading Genesis!If you actually look at Star Fleet in the context of the genre it comes from, anime, it's actually pretty restrained, but it's something to be conscious of when you're considering the way things play out - and of course the dubbing adds another layer of mystery to what's going on! What might be interesting is a subtitled version of the show done in modern times when translation is now a more practised art - someone could probably do that from the soon-to-be-released Japanese DVD (or indeed the older laserdisc) but it'd be a big commitment - more than subtitling a single film for example...One thing I've found is that people often comment on how the cartoons of today aren't as good as the cartoons of yesterday. I wonder how much of that is down to perceptions changing over time. I do think that the dub of Star Fleet was quite sophisticated in the language it used; that and the combination of puppetry probably makes the show feel more "real" for a lot of people. I think some modern kids shows do work as well - Reboot was very good, it worked on a lot of levels. Anyway, I think I'm rambling, so I shall stop now!
Andy Thomas - SFXB Webmaster and Forum Moderator

felice
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 11:14 pm

What would you change?

Postby felice » Wed Oct 16, 2002 4:13 am

Ooh yes, Reboot is an excellent example of a quality kids' program that holds up for adults too. In general, I think nostalgia is the major factor in preferring older shows. Both now and in the past, there have been both good and bad serieses. If anything, I think the standard for the best shows has increased, though they are few and far between.And I'd love to see the original Japanese X Bomber with accurate subtitles... is there any chance whatsoever of that being included in any potential Starfleet DVD release? I'd certainly be willing to wait longer and pay more for that. Interviews with any of the people involved who are contactable and willing to help out - even audio-only would do if the budget didn't stretch to filming them (or visiting Japan where appropriate). And any behind-the scenes photos that can be tracked down. And... ok, I'll shut up now.Would it be theoretically possible to have a big asteroid orbiting within Jupiter's atmosphere? Moved there by the Alliance? How strong would Jupiter's gravity be at that distance? And the black hole... er, it's not really a black hole, they just think it is initially. It's actually an, um, anomally (well, it works for Trek!). Maybe created by the Imperial Master at some point in the past.Good bits... well, I think the scene where Shiro is symbiotified is definitely a highlight 8)

AndyThomas
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What would you change?

Postby AndyThomas » Wed Oct 16, 2002 2:24 pm

There are "behind the scenes" photos on my site and Shane's - if you delve into my Interviews section, have a look at the Toru Kubo interview - there are some images there. Shane's site, http://www.bigdaix.com, has some similar ones and more besides in his X Bomber section taken from a Japanese magazine. As with the Terrahawks release, there's definitely the potential for extras...You'd be doing well to get an asteroid circling within Jupiter's atmosphere. The pressure is immense, gravity not withstanding. It's a very, very nasty planet and even its genuine moons take a battering because of their proximity to its gravitational and electromagnetic fields. Hmm. Thinking about it, some of the moons are actually in a high enough orbit to be stable so an Alliance base on one of them would have been a reasonable option...And yes, I liked the symbiote activation as well because I'd laid the foundation for it so many chapters before and it just seemed such an obvious thing to do with Shiro's helmet when I thought about it! ;)
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